I think Paul's speech a good summer, publish and share here

 Paul summer speech Moderator: Good afternoon, friends, today ushered in a new finance will be guest room, he is the former Citibank president of Asia-Pacific headquarters in asset finance, U.S. commercial banks before the Asian-Australian Region Headquarters, president of consumer banking, the current U.S. imperial Chairman of Inchcape Investment Group, American International Education Foundation President Mr. Xia Baoluo. welcome the arrival of Mr. Xia Baoluo summer .<><> Paul: Hello everybody, I am honored to appear on the financial drawing room, thank you host people. Moderator: Mr. Xia Baoluo Tsinghua University, now serves as CEO / EMBA class speaker professor. Mr. Xia Baoluo long been engaged in financial work, particularly the largest banks in the world for so many years with Citibank, a lot of new ideas. some time ago I have heard Mr. Xia Baoluo wonderful speech, I feel his thoughts and ideas on our current banking reform and development, and our full liberalization of China's financial industry there are many things worth learning, so please Mr. Xia Baoluo today will be a guest of financial living room, let us share his wisdom .<><> summer Paul: I am honored to have this opportunity .<><> Moderator: Mr. Xia Baoluo and we discuss today is the Ocean Wolf invasion of the problem now is that we respond more hot industry topic, foreign invasion after the wolf how we should adopt China's banking sector to deal with what kind of measures? Mr. Xia Baoluo Today's topic is: wolf invasion of foreign policy for China's banking sector in response to .<><> Summer Paul: China entering the WTO is a landmark. The people of the country is big and good for the Chinese government is the big thing. First People have more choices and cheaper goods, more service, the best management system around the world into China, from the banking sector is concerned, now all the world's best banks into China, this year is a key year, because before 2006 for the protection of China, all foreign banks Almost 100 rope tied to the end of the rope all removed, the real wolf foreign invasion of China in my opinion is the 2010 wolf 2020 .<><> foreign policy is obvious, the first is the first cream on the cake, first take the crown of diamonds, that is, for large customers; second layout, the first after the southeast northwest coastal areas first, inland. I do not doubt that the world is not only the United States, I think a world-class big banks, Bank of America, Deutsche Bank, HSBC and so that will enter China. These banks are winners, losers, there is no reason to do. We look at foreign banks and the gap between the Bank of China, far less than the number of Citigroup China four lines, but the money is the big four a few times, the per capita benefits are hundreds of times. So all the wolf came in foreign countries, the Bank of China in fact there are only three routes. with foreign Wolves. yang wolf prerequisite to qualify their first wolf wolf dance with the ocean, and if so will the chicken into dinner, and now all walks of life around the world have entered the era of mergers and acquisitions, what is left is called an oligopoly to the final left with several of the best, like the automotive industry, the world remaining four, the express industry in the world only nine, the remaining two aircraft industry, the banking industry will be the future through this process. 2020 China's banking sector may be divided into three categories: the first is with the Western Wolves? sharing wealth and status? even enter the international market is a separate market? or find a market segment which is a genus of two to do in this market segment a specific bank. speaking the vernacular is the acquisition and merger. China's banking sector to be the first to do crisis management, can not do everything according to the original. Second, you want money, ready to raise rates. on banks around the world in terms of, like Citigroup Capital adequacy ratio was 12.5%, China, the Bank is concerned, may take away the bad debt is debt capital, so the system inadequate, so the first point should raise capital. Now the reform of the four major banks in support of the government, basically The Government does three things: 1, injection of funds, 2, to get out of dealing with bad debts, 3, the processing can remove non-performing loans also. how to reduce future bad debt, how to improve risk management of banks capacity, only 0.5% of Citigroup's bad loans, many Chinese banks have more than 30%. This is a huge gap between management, risk management, the ability to vividly reflected here. The third is how to find strategic partners of the problem, Unfortunately, the current class has not been found, are second-rate, third class, of course, that controversial. The fourth is the overseas market, China's banks choose to Hong Kong or the United States. Fifth, the Government should change the rules of the game . I believe the one hand, will increase government control of banks. On the other hand, the banks will show a lot of loose, the world is of national banks are relaxed, for example: the original commercial banks with investment banks can not be entirely different. so the world's banks relaxed, while increasing financial strength, provide better service. United States, but Japan is so, China must not be an exception. But the problem now facing is the time and modalities, how to reborn, reborn or not. First. In the future, serious consequences of foreign invasion of the wolf, before the problems in the future will repeat offenders, the same as the bad debt problem. Of course reborn is a great learning, human thought does not change, the purpose will not change its behavior. First of all we are talking about changes in thinking, the change from thinking about changing the corporate culture, talking about strategic change, change comes to positioning it comes to change in the system. Merchants Bank president Ma Weihua, a word once said: enough, to subvert, but to have courage to have the courage to subvert the vision, so to talk about fundamental reform. selection and training issues. like the United States requires that each person's growth is ten times already growing class talent but also ten times, so people have to rely on upgrading the training, how to reuse the talent, rewards to people, this is a system problem, first-class A bank is a first-class talent, is the second-rate second-rate bank personnel, banks that Mo Liu Mo Liu talent. <> Third, on the system. there is no system, only I, wise, definitely not for long. do evergreen businesses, business excellence, to the world the world from generation to generation, growing more and more to be to rely on the system, this is the third point. Fourth, international. because this year may be the most profitable in France, Germany, perhaps the most profitable next year, perhaps Japan's most profitable year after . Fifth, there must be strategic awareness. In other words, A product may be the most popular in the past five years, B products may be the most popular five years later. You want to see it. Sixth, banks have great social benefits, you must do to social benefits should be made to allow SMEs to financing. not only to large corporate loans, loans to SMEs because you do not, do not give SMEs loans, not because the car will not loan not the car loans. Therefore, the subject lot. I simply talked about here. Moderator: Citibank and the cultivation of Chinese banks have very different customers, so forging a pattern of suction gold Citibank, I heard called ;. Citibank is how suction gold? what are the characteristics and in what way to suck gold? Summer Paul: Banks is money, and there are cheap so you have to get through the smoke .<><> gold and two veins. If you call me tomorrow, Citibank Beijing Branch is responsible for, and I talk about how I do. bank products is not money, because only the central bank printed money you can not print money, so it is not your product, the bank is selling credit. So, you save man a million, I'll give you a call note books, you save ten million man I hit a zero or a note, why do you keep? is a credit, bank credit product is not money, it attracts the gold Dafa is to establish credit. s a packaging board, the Chinese talk about celebrities and so on. Secondly, I am packing hardware, change it, my hardware, my bank, but also firmly than the central bank. The following questions about innovation, from start to finish to be innovative, thought to be innovative , acts to innovation, management to innovation, product innovation, marketing to innovation and technology to innovation, from start to finish of subversion. this is not a simple matter, while a great gap between Chinese and foreign banks; second, the gap has been for many years , people's banks in advance, so if progress is not fast enough, the gap is only growing, it is how to catch up is a priority, thank you. Moderator: Innovation is the Chinese banks are facing a new problem, in fact, Chinese banks have gone the way of innovation for many years, but there is no innovation in the international environment, the starting line in the new innovative system requires innovative concept of international competition. you think that China's banking sector is in response to a policy of independent innovation as the cause? or as the main reason for ?<><> strain Summer Paul: This is the result of a fruit, the pressure on the one hand, foreign banks, innovation is not about white death. It's that simple, China Merchants Bank Ma Weihua, president mentioned .<><> Moderator: Ma Weihua, China Merchants Bank Summer .<><> Paul: Do not have to be a merger or acquisition of innovation, so this is not a matter of choice do not be a non-issue. because only the future of innovation, it is cause problems. we all want to do this thing, the focus is how to do it. This comes to knowledge, since the twenty-first century is the era of knowledge economy, knowledge is only if no slogan is not used, large areas of innovation is the comprehensive, innovative thought, human innovation and technological innovation and so on. What kind of innovation is the overall innovation? subtle innovation is of no use. but I think start from the ideological, and not President of the ideas, to full of ideas. from the governor thought the idea to the executives, from executives to the full of innovative ideas is the real innovation. Moderator: my last After listening to a lecture about Citibank Xia winning strategy and tactics. Do you think winning strategy for Citibank in the banks to run through? Chinese banks on how to fully open? the end of 2006, when full liberalization of the capital market, China how to take the banking sector with international standards and win strategic ?<><> Summer Paul: First, you have to set goals, so if you want to climb the hill does not make sense. 50 years to do the world's best banks, 30 After years of doing financial supermarket, he did. mind how much, how much business there. Second, the talent bank is the service industry, one hundred percent by the people. so into what has flute, flute also lost any. you have to take over the world for training first-class CEO, if the funds first to the training fund first-class talent, if the first-class marketing to develop first-class marketing talent. who decides everything. You talk about people, be people-oriented, human resources inside the company mean? United States 20% management personnel, Vice Chairman of the personnel can be called people-oriented management. Citibank, hiring the best students around the world, Harvard MBA, etc., but also that they will grow ten-fold, so the quality of Chinese banks to be much improved. to talk about people, a are compound talents, one is international talents, one is high-quality personnel. for the one day the central bank may be down, maybe you will not fall, in other words is called resplendent. to Hong Kong to see if the building is a copper gold powder and glass. Third, the quality of people is more important. short remote to deal with, so we need high-quality people. men and women are important. Fourth, the play courtesy card, I bowed and bowed to the floor up, my sincere smile. s Fifth, I engage in the service, you have no reason to keep a straight face with customers. you have to face a smile, proactive service. what services you need, I can do anything for you, take the initiative. this way we spring into Bank. Sixth, play time card. You have no right to allow customers time and so on. customers to save money, as long as the real one, you receive the customer left, and then slowly and do what you do, what obligation to allow Customers wait for you? you withdraw money, how can call fifty thousand dollars? large customers, please have time to, but also to offend customers? what, 20% of large customers to the last word. what banks for large customer service? First, large customers is no queue. Queuing is something the general public, determined not to line up large customers, large customers is ridiculous long lines. Second, the introduction of the VIP room, and the third, a red carpet welcome, the fourth, allowing the best employees serve major clients, the fifth, profit clients. man, next year you buy the stock to make next year to buy the house to earn tomorrow, the foreign exchange to make a profit, he bought you this to make money every time you catch all go away . Moreover, he has not the United States lost money, he lost any money to buy francs United States, he bought the Pacific cost you any money, he bought Tsingtao you lose any money. all experts on the things you have to profit customers, and then used make tomorrow's news, especially the more money .<><> International Finance: the current situation, China's financial services and banking services abroad What is the difference ?<><> Summer Paul: the sky, underground. I talked about the Citi Financial, assuming you the richest man is the whole of 1000 Beijing family, the first point of our services, and the second home of our services. You can not expect large customers to visit you, you have to visit the big customers. take the initiative. If you open a second restaurant, I ask you to call the morning, each hotel 100 dollars how much, how much 20 dollars, all of which I send you, you have two I use in Hong Kong HK sent to you, I was close, warm, personal service, this is for large customers, especially the more .<><> Finance News Reporter: What are the product gap ?<><> Summer Paul: products that range . financial management methods are foreign exchange, a fund, real estate, there are futures, stocks, there is gold, there are bonds and so on. we tell you every kind of return on investment, risk of every kind of tell you where, and then I said to your property, not all of the first basket in the first place, second to your life and your age and worth the risk should be much, if you agree in principle, I find all the financial experts for you, if you engage in gold to engage experts in the world's best gold and so on. If you have children and grandchildren, I want you to have three generations of the rich, the rich over the Five, I want your children to Harvard, came back we set up the best company, planning the most good projects, we are doing to support three generations, to take care of three generations. and pro-active. all the more expert .<><> Finance News reporter in particular: you talk about talent, what kind of Chinese banks Excellent people and foreign banks in summer than ?<><> Paul: In general, three is determined, first, from the macro-speaking, to compound talents to international talents, to high-quality personnel . go into detail, to recruit training, personnel to work independently, work independently Citigroup this is talent. What is the work independently, the first not to consult, if referrals, you are teaching fees. short-term can make money, that is short of talent, short , medium and long term are able to make money, be called special skills talent. the best people, first, any country to make money, no product to make money, have money in any market, any company making money, to such talent, the problem is that How many people? Moderator: Citigroup talent is not there in the inverted pyramid training model ?<><> Summer Paul: Citi reward system is an inverted pyramid. For example, his head is above your 50 times, encourage you to grow and take responsibility. encourage rising stars. a company to have the future in the products of tomorrow, people of tomorrow, if the stars of tomorrow more than today's products, the company will have growth. First, he did something never done, first to control the risk, so the United States need this kind of talent. assuming he would have to invest the insurance 20%, 20% of those who can not reach all the suicide. to do more than 20%, 20% I to such a red envelope, 30% to such a large red envelope. encourage high return on investment, and second, to encourage everyone to do business without capital. did not give the business to 50% of the project team points. there must be so rewarded under Isao. Moderator: Citigroup's then climb 8,000 meters, every day we step by step. On the efficient operation of the second, what is efficient? first, do first on the matter, I told you to go to Shanghai, the fastest speed you do not go to Guangzhou. now the most profitable do consumer banking, corporate banking not to do. Now is not the business do not do loans, do first the relative importance of things. On the one hand, national policies, on the one hand talk about people's needs, on the one hand talk about bank profits, in the middle of taking an average point. Second, this beautiful thing to do. In other words low input high output. This interview system, the absolute priority system, one is how to low-input high output system. Third, the high service. Fourth, the high quality. Fifth, high satisfaction. Who satisfaction, customer satisfaction, employee very satisfied, very satisfied with the government, you are most satisfied. and then talk about the appropriate costs, certainly not the lowest cost. On the right is the cost of learning, is the doctrine of right to return to China. Moderator : United States talking about creating passion, go all out staff, we want to know how to create the so-called Citi passionate workforce .<><> summer Paul: Citigroup about passion, mainly rely on the system. Speaking incentive system, in other words, how to let people go all out, full of passion, all of his potential with them, and pleasant work, this is the main. so that each employee must rely on the system to do it, employees not to take on the best whip, monitoring is the next worst, so incentive is the best policy, any bank is the best incentive system, the principles of incentive system, first, I use one by one theory, the raising of a group of people, so that They do three things, first is the high jump, the audience clapped desperately; second, turned to the best of three dolphins somersault, all with the potential to come out, this is called a special performance; Third, the staff every day performance, and obviously has a performance, so let employees dry three things: first high-performance, special performance of the second and third regular performance. so you have to be incentive system. First, you must be willing for the people, Do not be stingy boss. He jumped three times you do not even feed the fish, he absolutely can not jump the fourth time. Second, your performance is proportional to feed the fish. You can not jump the small feed fish, feed the big jump fish, but also the water fast, so in general, made the same year-end bonuses to white hair. so than quarter of bonus money, quarter, month bonus as bonus. different people eat different fish, and some employees to feel safe, there are staff in order to survive, and some employees in order to challenge, with the staff to a sense of accomplishment, and some employees to self-realization, and some staff to work independently. you have to feed a different bait, or make management too simple. So the incentive system is the most important and most important institution, so to create a good incentive system. In fact even the government have to do, the family has to be done. in the United States is the cash incentive pay for executives is accompanying him three times. is hard to dig him. but his contribution to your peers ten times, so three times the profit. Second, those who have a job as director of value. encourage you to take greater responsibility, you manage 100 billion in assets, earn 10 times your annual profit. Third, is difficult to increase. I tune you go to the Himalayas, there is no raise in pay would you go? Fourth, all the gaps are taken into account, including the children's education. so you do not consider other factors. and, more important is to discuss the project with the shares. They are called golden handcuffs. the best man handcuffed together, more importantly, encourage people not only cash but also non-cash incentives. every day, making all the employees it. This non-cash incentive is issued you a certificate, medal, I made a sign placed on your desk, I sent you a certificate hanging on the wall you, others have not had this is the non-cash incentives. I send you and your family to Paris play, called non-cash incentives. Citigroup down the whole stadium package, as an incentive to employees. your family share the wealth and status in the back seat. your seat in the car, and ribbons floating down the sky, which far exceeds that of any incentive award, the value of this life, the most important thing is to say that each of the following employees next year I will replace it. Therefore, encourage too important .<><> Moderator: On the comparison interesting. China's banks should be in the creative marketing how to do? Chinese banks and the United States, where the gap between creative marketing ?<><> summer Paul: Let me give you a case, the so-called creative, we must break the routine, Citigroup will use creativity to find the best market So attack the dentist market, I use this as an example: Mr. Smith you are too good, I cited proud of you. The following should do something about the students, sophomore, a junior in continued contact, a senior, I give you a trick few years, I pay close attention to your progress, and I am proud of you, you graduate and employment issues you face, you have two options, one in which large companies do small screws, a second is to create their own world, or in the large hospital doctors, or will start, but the most important venture capital, from this point to talk about, you have rich fiancee too smart, if you do not have money, fianc��e, fianc��e because you have the money, I From the rich fiancee talk, first, the whole place in Toronto to open a dentist, this place is the greatest shortages of dentists, I opened one hundred locations to provide for your choice. Second, you must manage the nurse, I'll get you pretty nurses, if no one give you billing account I gave you, and if you do not have to deal with the IRS to deal with me with the IRS, where the benefits? First, he easily start; second, he had no the venture. benefits from the bank Where? first speak the vernacular, in the time he did not make any money working for you completely; Second, money is not employed as nurses do not pay. More important is that you account for him, and he himself did not know when it will fall down, you are easily than he knows. zero risk. big profits, rapid market expansion, take-all pass to kill, with competition in the industry hard. so be creative .<><> Moderator : The guest room of the press, the financial will have Financial Times Jin Lixin, International Finance News reporter, especially Vietnam, the First Financial Daily reporter Zhang Bing, Liu Dan City Evening News, and Reuters reporters that there is no interest, would like to ask .<><> Finance News Reporter of summer, especially total more: Citigroup mentioned the advantages of the total summer, I feel a great gap between Chinese banks, Citibank in China is not the water and soil dissatisfied, or certainly not the case in terms of Citigroup closed-end Chinese market a board set screw things ?<><> summer Paul: No Chinese banks and Chinese consumers United States is absolutely impossible. Second, the Chinese talk about relations, Chinese banks from any angle a million times better than the United States, the third, China has a large sales network of foreign banks are not. Fourth, China accounted for a huge market, foreign banks start from zero. so to their use of their advantages, a combination of two words, powerful combination is better. This is like a small little stage, is absolutely the most money but do not make good citizens of China. In other words, do all the things to be 200% in line with China Government policy is to do from the perspective of good little. Now, remove the rope and other end of the year, here is the big layout. First, he will find a good strategic partner, and the second is that he will take the crown diamonds. Third, the development of quality products. Fourth, take the most in line with China's national conditions, the maximum political benefit, the maximum economic benefit, the biggest social thing. there is also wisdom, creativity .<><> City Liu Dan Evening News: Citigroup upper management, the management of the United States is still using local talent in China? that there is not a talent gap? summer Paul: First, Citi's management staff in three, one is international , a regional, one is in Asia or India, or in Japan. Secondly, he attaches great importance to localization. The third is communication, internal communication, external communication, lateral communication. you tube 100 with 100 people communication pipe 1000 to communicate with the 1000, so the communication is the most important thing, will unite as one. <> First Financial Daily reporter Zhang Bing: I once interviewed an entrepreneur, you just talk about an innovative topic He believes that innovation is the first to imitate, how do you think ?<><> summer Paul: Not really on .<><> innovation is the choice, on the innovation, how wrong is innovation ? of the imitation, imitating how wrong? no choice, said the innovation called suicide .<><> First, innovation is highly intelligent stuff. Second, innovation is imitation is the best , innovation is definitely not in an ivory tower fantasy, then it's no innovation. Citibank case, GE said, we talk with Wal-Mart, CM is the founder of his people, his wife said that my old man in the company much longer than in family time. If you have 100 competitors, 100 competitors, you can get creative, you're the best. This is a university which asked twenty thousand a product recall opponents as you behold, there are 100 competitors shop you see which store is the knowledge you learn after reading, this is a high degree of choice. Second, how to get Wal-Mart after the repair, we call optimization, is another matter. Third, integration issues , how to integrate the original and how integration of new things, this is called innovation, otherwise called the devouring. Financial Times, personally think that he is not really acclimatized? you think if that is true, other foreign banks to enter China's inability to adapt what is ?<><> Summer of Paul: First, we do not say that water and soil Fubu Fu The first reason is not China's problem, and the second is not a foreign issue, and the third is not his problem, must be so divided. The first is to see whether he has genuine talent, if not, the Chinese people against him ; second if there is, the genuine talent that he will not melt together with the Chinese localization, if not all mixed live without him; Third, foreigners with Chinese philosophy is different from how to integrate different culture. These are his problems, I believe there are personal problems, to study the problem of a child, his wife's problems and so on, is not that simple. <> <> In other words, the Chinese side has no make enough effort, he has not done enough effort, these must be successful to be successful. This is a difficult thing, but the United States was successful in this regard, as I have been to many countries, each country few years. Today, there are problems in France go to France, went to Brazil tomorrow, there are problems in Brazil, you can deal with the British people, can also deal with the Japanese, so that this relatively strong capacity, but you can debug, but not necessarily you happy. < > <> Financial Times Jin Lixin: Many people think so, banks and non-mature and mature a distinction between banks is that banks do not make mature, or make fewer mistakes, and immature in this regard weaker banks in the world Bank of the United States should be considered mature, his mistake should be less, what do you think Citibank that he make fewer mistakes ?<><> Summer Paul: is the United States to encourage an angle to make mistakes. because the United States about self-confidence. China is more and more mistakes, less to do little wrong, do not do good, if not to the enterprise is no action, and so the United States will encourage mistakes. But mistakes are mistakes of the philosophy: First, do the things to do to make it far more than the second, can not make the same mistake, you pay your dues white, so that small mistakes continue, the different fault so that we quickly grow and learn, this is the talent we need. talk , Citi Bank and non-mature talk mature banks. Citigroup is relatively less mistakes, the first by a good system. system of control, like the United States in China, the boss still make money, have a good management control system. Second, by the excellent people. basically rely on these two. This applies to all banks and enterprises, institutions and people, especially the more .<><> Finance News Reporter: Citigroup is how to guard against financial cases ?<><> ; Summer Paul: First, he hired people to look at ethics. This is an important point, people conduct more stringent than the system. you hire people who are not greedy. Second, the United States to see how much money you will be corrupt. you 1000000 greed, but you never can not reach 100 million, you'll never greedy money. Thirdly, he has a strong risk management systems. all kinds of risks are to manage, country risk, industry risk management, risk management customers, management interest rate risk, operational risk management, and so on, every kind of pipe is a system, and why he risks can be controlled in 0.5% City Evening News, socialist countries, Citibank foothold in the market, you believe that the bank management policies and foreign products should be how a change in the direction of Paul ?<><> summer: speaking from behind, he would comply with all the laws of China; from a macroeconomic viewpoint, he will follow closely all the strategic partners, who earn the most money is not the short term; from the product in terms of, first, we have to do the middle of services, relying on the wisdom to make money, make money by knowledge , by the head to make money. mergers and acquisitions, etc. This is not the IPO business, 75% of Citigroup's revenue in China is to do business without capital, many Chinese people want, but you do not have the talent and knowledge. the best way to do without The business, zero-risk zero investment. and is the most profitable. This is the first priority. Second, do consumer banking. I examples, the two most profitable business of a Citibank credit card, credit card definition of the definition from the bank is legally usury. I put put the six companies, credit watch you can put 18-28. Third, the foreign exchange to make money, all with non-RMB consumption, the exchange rate is the banks. Fourth, he earned FLALP, travel in space when the money banks to make money, you definitely count, but banks. equal to the interest-free loans on banks say customers vernacular. fifth, earning fees, the Bank of China have done so in the future credit cards, because the first card issued 8 million to 10 million, to make a buck The first to do so massive, the first a marketing capacity, operational capacity of the second fast, and the third must be low-cost operational capability. Another is the ability to control risk, the ability to learn will not be able to engage in less than the money. s Second, do traveler's checks, traveler's checks customer called the bank interest-free loan. give me 5,000 dollars I bought five checks, you never take the best, spent the better, even when you spend you need to pay fees, interest are paid, as foreign banks earn your money, not to mention doing traveler's checks, Citigroup's low cost, traveler's checks is that it gives travel agents, so business travel is free. These are not head to, with his knee to have thought out. City Evening News, From a business point of view, any bank want to do high-quality customers, business is good, because 20% of customers give you 80% cash, 80% of income to you and give you 80% of the profits, should strive for 20% of any bank, each wants to The key is the ability. the first quality customers to quality services. Second, customers want high-quality full-service, how Citigroup first service for IBM, IBM, if more than 200 countries around the world have branches, we Citigroup in 200 countries to IBM service. Second, in each country is one thing not to do should serve IBM, how he wanted to make IBM a day Tang Chuangshang happier more satisfied. Third, IB ...